Adeel 0:10
Hello, everyone, thank you for tuning in to another episode of calm Talks. My name is a deal, and I'm here alongside my co host that we are here to help you lead a life of peace and progression. One calm talk at a time. Have you ever found yourself in a situation where you knew you needed to stand up for yourself, but you weren't sure how to do it without making things worse? While you're not alone? A recent study found that 70% of people handle difficult conversations by avoiding them altogether. That alludes to the fact that people actually don't feel equipped to have those conversations. So today's episode is all about giving you the tools. In fact, the only tools you need to navigate difficult conversations with calmness,
Ant 0:46
I just want to say that we're not talking about navigating difficult conversations, say just at work, we're actually talking about navigating difficult conversations throughout your life, whether that is at work with personal relationships with family members, or maybe just genuinely like how Annabelle in your day to day life. So this is all about how to navigate difficult conversations for all aspects of your life.
Adeel 1:08
So and I'm gonna let you kick this one off, what's the first step you will give someone is trying to navigate a difficult conversation.
Ant 1:14
The first tip is probably something that we always talk about. And that is understanding your why understanding the rationale, the reason, the motivation for what you're trying to do what you're trying to achieve. I think that's the first step. When it comes to navigating a difficult conversation,
Adeel 1:32
we talk about finding your why quite often on this podcast, actually, we emphasize how important the Y is, in all endeavors. We actually have episode number four, where we talk about finding a wife so that that could help you lead a meaningful life. Check that one out, if you haven't already. Today is more about focusing on finding the why, for that conversation. What's the motive behind that? What's the reasoning behind that? What we really mean by that is, are you really trying to find a resolution? Are you trying to arrive at some solution? Are you just looking at event, but if you're just looking to complain, that's fine. We all go through those moments. But it's important for you to recognize why you want to have that conversation in the first place.
Ant 2:11
Yeah, like does it benefit you to have this conversation? does it benefit the other person? Is there some mutual benefit going on? You need to decide that rationale and that motivation upfront before you go ahead and have that difficult conversation.
Adeel 2:24
You know, there's an example that just came to my mind, actually right now. And it's work related, actually, where there was a lot of stress on my previous job. And we were getting loads of deals closed, where the sales team was basically pitching product features, which were not there. And we were constantly under stress when we're trying to actually onboard the customer. And if it had reached the point that everybody was stressed, everybody was burned out, like we're constantly trying to fix the wrongs, or the overzealous selling of the teams by kind of navigating those difficult situations all the time. So I actually wanted to kind of share that feedback with our leadership team. And what I ended up doing was actually sending out a message to a couple of people on the team. To be honest with you, that was actually something in hindsight that I regret. Because now that I look back, I know that my reason to reach out to everyone wasn't actually to find a solution. It was just event, because my message that I sent to them was actually more whiny it was kind of complaining about the situation as opposed to trying to figure out a situation. So I share that, even though that's not the example where I had the VI, which was clear to me, that was actually something that I made a misstep on a situation where I made a misstep on and I learned from it so that I knew my why, from the future conversations I could have.
Ant 3:48
I mean, I think that's actually why this is tip number one, because you have to get that cemented in your mind first, before you never get to tip 234 And five.
Adeel 3:56
Speaking of Tip number two, what's tip number two?
Ant 3:59
Well, once you understand your rationale, your motive, your why the next thing is to choose when he needs to have the timing right. Need to make sure you're conscious of all the other variables at play. And you choose the right time to have this difficult conversation.
Adeel 4:16
Yeah, I mean, there's one thing that I always say is that the right message at the wrong time is the wrong message. And you actually want to make sure that you are calm, you're poised to deliver that message, you want to make sure that you are in the right frame of mind. Also, you want to consider if is the right time for the other person, if they're going through a difficult time or difficult period, maybe it's not the best time to have that conversation. Totally recognize that some conversations cannot be delayed. You have to find the balance. So don't want to give generalized advice. You want to be making sure the timing is right for you, as well as whoever you're trying to have that conversation with
Ant 4:48
recording yourself. Right. I think you mentioned this about being like very emotionally poised or being poised, I think is the word you used. And I completely agree with that. You have to make sure you as you know in your own skin In, emotionally balanced, you're calm, you are present with what's going on. Because last thing you want to do is have a conversation which is charged, which may lead to you having some biases or projecting, you know, some other old piece of information or some old experience onto somebody else, you don't want to do that. You want to make sure that when you enter this conversation, that you're doing it from a place of peace and balance, and therefore unbiased in your approach, and you give the other person the chance and the space to feel safe, etc.
Adeel 5:31
And frankly, that's something I've experienced in my personal relationships, especially in my younger years, I've made the mistake of maybe having difficult conversations at the wrong time. And as I grew up, as I matured, and learned through experience, I found myself in situations where maybe I had a conflict with my girlfriend and wasn't ready to have that conversation wasn't the right time to have that conversation. I can think of a moment in my last relationship, where there were some emotions running high, we had gone out with a few friends, we had out a few drinks. And then we had gotten back. And it wasn't really an argument. But there was something that we basically disagreed on. And it was not heated, but it was getting there. And I could see that. So in that moment, I said, Let's not talk about her. And now, you know, we're here to go to sleep tomorrow morning, we'll pick it up again, it's an important conversation. Right now, we've all had a few drinks, and it's late at night, is there is no reason to have that right now. So tomorrow will be a better time for this.
Ant 6:32
You see, ironically, managing difficult conversation in this case was understanding. Number one, this is a difficult conversation. And in this case, you was conscious of how you were feeling how you acting, what's going on in front of you. And also the other person in front of you how they were reacting to this, you recognize a time wasn't right. And therefore you said to reconvene later. So in this example, I think is actually a great example, you're really demonstrating that navigating difficult conversation sometimes means navigating away, because the timing isn't right.
Adeel 7:03
Totally, sometimes you just have to walk away, and then you can pick it back up, right. So totally aligned over there.
Ant 7:09
Regarding the next point, the third point, when you're having a difficult conversation, as we said, in point two, you want to make sure that you're not being overly charged or emotionally unbalanced. And one good way to do that is to speak from a factual mindset to be very objective. The last thing you want to do, as we said, important, too, is be unbalanced and project and be biased towards certain outcomes or certain results that you want or certain viewpoints that you have. So sticking to the facts really helpful.
Adeel 7:39
You found your why you've got the timing right. Now, I just want to make sure that you're focusing on the facts and the message itself, in the delivery of that message itself. And that's the best way to kind of go about the situation, right? Because in their minds, everybody thinks they're right. Everybody thinks they're the Savior, they're the hero, the other person, you know, whatever narrative we want to build, we usually do. And hopefully through this podcast, you're learning a bit of introspection and self awareness. The fact is that you want to just focus on the facts, you just want to be objective, in your message itself. Something that I've come across in some of my professional life, is that when I'm communicating any facts to my boss, or my manager, I'll try to quantify whatever it is that I'm trying to convey. So I would share, like, if I'm trying to say, like, I'm burned out, that could be subjective, right? Like who's burned out? How is it, but if I focus on the facts and say, Hey, I'm working like 60 hours a week, on working on like, you know, 20 projects, or whatever the case may be, I can quantify it where the other person can actually understand what I'm speaking about one adjective, which I learned, actually, from a friend of mine, a very close friend of mine from college, shout out to Brooke. She always told me that, you know, when you're sharing feedback with your manager, if you post to them that, you know, whatever they're asking of you is unreasonable or unrealistic using adjectives like that are usually well received. Because when you express the manager, that XYZ is unreasonable, let's say 60 hours a week, or like 20 projects, or X number of projects, and you say that, hey, I'm assigned on 20 Plus projects, if I was assigned five more, that is unreasonable. Usually a reasonable person will see that and be able to understand your side.
Ant 9:25
You know, I'm going to ask you a common question. What happens if somebody thinks that is reasonable to do 25 projects or work 80 hours a week? Well,
Adeel 9:33
it's a big question, right? Because to me, that reflects that the other person is being unreasonable. And that in itself is a big indicator to you of where that person is coming from. If a person actually turns around to you, and calls the unreasonable reasonable, that means one a few is wrong. So hopefully, you have gone through the right steps to actually make a request that is reasonable. So I would say that if I was in the in that position, I wouldn't go there and then that this person actually does not understand reason. And to me, that's probably a bigger problem that I have to solve, and maybe walk away from that situation altogether. And in this case of maybe a workplace environment, I have to go looking for another job.
Ant 10:17
Not gonna lie, I've been a situation. Yeah, I've been on a project as well, it worked. And at the time, I was studying for something as well, like a personal thing. And the project was coming in at like, well over 60 hours a week. I was like, Well, how am I supposed to be passing this exam? You know, I'm doing on the side that you want me to pass? How do you want me to do both? More, you know, the responses, but you're a genius. You can do everything. Maybe that's true. I'm not. I'm not gonna say
Adeel 10:47
he said it.
Ant 10:50
But the truth is, is that that's, I think that's unreasonable. It is kind of irrelevant how much of a quote unquote genius you are, without putting time in never can be expected the past things. It's just not right. It's not reasonable to your point. And in that moment, I realized that there was a difference in values for sure. And you're right. That's what led to, you know, in this case, we basically taken a different route, different path.
Adeel 11:19
So did you find yourself actually having a difficult conversation with this person?
Ant 11:24
Oh, yeah, I did. And it was actually one of my bosses. And I said to them very clearly, you're expecting me to do this, whilst also expecting me to, say pass exams? Which one is the one that takes precedent is how I approached it. Because I can only have time to do one thing, that you let me know which one is most important to you? Because I wouldn't do both. I think I was very diplomatic, to be honest. Because I'm not saying I can't do them. I'm asking you to justify how I can do both. I'm actually putting it back on you, or which the responses we'll just do one. Only? When did you? Did I actually give their optionality back to the person to help me make the choice that they were putting on me? Did they realize that it was unreasonable?
Adeel 12:07
What you did over there was quite masterfully done. Which was you approach that situation with a game plan of what your desired outcome was? And that's what Tip number four is that whatever message you're delivering, try to align to a desired outcome. So you can actually arrive there tactfully?
Ant 12:29
Yeah, and in this example, it does actually show that so I could easily have, you know, got upset, I could easily have been flustered, vented about it moaned about it, whatever. But instead, I just took the more factually based approach, one that was free from any loss or emotional imbalance. And I literally asked the question back, because I knew what I really wanted to achieve, was the other person to understand whether or not they think they're being reasonable. Ultimately, I wanted them to understand that they were probably being unreasonable. And by posing the question back, you open their mind to see that it was unreasonable to expect me to work 60 to 80 hours for like a month, and pass exams on the side, which themselves like, you start doing a degree whilst working?
Adeel 13:18
Yeah, while you're running a podcast on this, right, it's
Ant 13:20
just all these things together, obviously, it's not going to happen. Only when that approach was clear that I wanted them to understand whether or not they were being reasonable was able to have that conversation and come to a mutual understanding of what the outcome should be, which in this case, was just focused on one of them things,
Adeel 13:38
something that everyone listening, you should be aware of, as well as the when you're having this difficult conversation. You could always go sideways, you could always come across an unreasonable person, it's always possible. So definitely, as you're thinking about your desired outcome, also be aware of any consequences that could come with it. Right. And we're just sharing his own experience about coming across his manager who was being quite unreasonable in that spot. And that's always going to be the case, but you must only focus on your bid is always remained civil during those moments.
Ant 14:10
I think that leads us on to the fifth and final tip, which is to develop empathy. You mentioned to be wary of the consequences of your decision or the consequences of the conversation you're having. One of them, it could be positive, it could get the outcome you want, could be negative, but irrespective whether it's positive or negative, or somewhere in between, you need to have empathy to the other person to understand where they're coming from, to understand how they may be feeling about that situation. Because without that, you know, you're just not very human, you don't develop a good connection. And also, ultimately, you won't come across as somebody that has that high EQ. So you need to embedded empathy within your thought process of when having this difficult conversation. I can't
Adeel 14:51
control if someone else is being unreasonable, but I can control if I'm being reasonable. That's all I can focus on. So even in this situation, you always want to make sure that you are being respectful and empathetic towards the person, even professionally, if it's in a professional setting, because ultimately, even if they're being rude or mean or whatever, you can only judge yourself and be accountable for how you carried yourself. And in my experience, most of the time, if you take the high road, either the other person is going to come around. Or if they don't, at least you will always look back and say, You know what, I carried myself, in that situation, the best that I could
Ant 15:31
do you have an example of when you showed empathy in a tough conversation, I think
Adeel 15:37
there have been several conversations, I'm gonna share a work example, because that's the first one that's coming to my mind that I was at a team event in Denver. So one of the trips our company made, it was for our professional services team, we all basically flew out to Denver strongly like a little short of 100 of us, like maybe 70 of us, I don't exactly remember of it, but somewhere between 70 to 100. And a lot of the people that I was meeting over there, I had never met, because I'm based out of New York, and a lot of the folks were San Francisco, California, UK, etc. So we had a few team building activities. And one of them we didn't know we went out for drinks, eating, and you know, me, I don't drink that much. Everybody else, you know, keeps on drinking. And I'll go actually kind of pace myself a lot more than ever with colleagues, to be honest. You've seen me maybe not pace myself and a night out.
Ant 16:28
Yeah, I literally don't know.
Adeel 16:31
So anyways, Brad, this restaurant, it was a spot in Denver, I forget the name. But it was supposed to be like a gaming kind of arena where there was like, bowl tables and stuff like that, trying to actually get the pool table. And it was like a long wait, blah, blah, blah. So we're having like drinks and we ordered food in amazing food, which I had no idea Denver roll like that. But it was actually really good food. And some of the conversations were going towards some things which will be considered like PC, there may be controversial topics. I'll give you an example. Like, we were talking about Elon Musk. And people on the on the table. Were saying like Elon Musk is a terrible example and a terrible role model. I think you're on Elon Musk is great. He's not perfect. No human being is present one human being to me who is perfect. But I think Elon Musk is doing a lot of good. He gets a lot of things wrong shore. But his net, in my opinion is still positive. So I was having this conversation with these other people, and everyone was kind of against me. And they were all saying Elon Musk is terrible. He's a bad role model. So the conversation was getting a little bit heated, but I was just sitting back and just asking them questions. I was like, Well, why do you think Elon Musk is a bad person? Okay, can you give me another example of another person who is a better role model? So in that position, I kept asking them questions, even though in my head, I wanted to say, that's wrong. In my opinion, that's wrong. But I understood that, okay, someone else has a different opinion, the best I can do is actually try to understand where they're coming from. So try to listen to them about what their values are. And they didn't value the things that Elon Musk brings, the things that you could criticize Elon Musk for is, for example, like tweeting about some crypto as a joke. And then, you know, maybe people losing money, their values were more akin to that activity being unacceptable. I disagree with that. But I tried to be very empathetic and tried to understand them. Whereas actually, towards the end of it, even though this conversation became a bit heated, one of the persons who was there was actually like one of the VPs, she kind of pulled me to the side, she's like, You know what I really liked about that conversation. You had a different opinion to everyone, but you didn't try to stamp your opinion. You asked everyone why they were coming from their position.
Ant 18:48
I think that's a good example of being really diplomatic, especially at work and showing the ability to take on other people's opinions, even though you might disagree. Regarding empathy, right, I actually have a bit of a strange example. Like somewhat strange. And this involves dating you know. You know, when you're dating and you're seeing someone and you're not sure if you want to take it further, etc, right? Oh, yeah. This is a difficult conversation. Right? Oh, yeah. Is Right. Like, how do you say to someone in a nice way, I don't want to continue hanging out with you. That's not easy. That's actually quite hard. This is saying that you have to show us so much empathy for her in the situation where the other person is that oh, why why not? Let's do a great we can do these things together. We can go here we you know, it was a good thing going on. What things different interests but in truth, right. I could just be like cold and be like, I don't care. Move on whatever. In that moment. You have to be like, you know, I'm sorry. It hurts. Sorry that You know, we have different viewpoints on where this was going. I'm sorry that it's upsetting for you that you went to continue, and I didn't, things like that, right, you have to be conscious of the other person's feeling. In that example, maybe not the most obvious example definitely like work, but one where you have to have a high degree of empathy. If someone said that to me, and they were just like a robot, like, yeah, don't care move on me, that would hurt. If someone said to me, I'm sorry that you just say I wanted to continue a girl. And she didn't want to see me for whatever the reason was, and she was I'm sorry, like, you know, she was trying really a lot of care for how I felt about it. I would know that you know what, even though that we don't want the same thing, still respect this approach, I still value the way this conversation is being delivered to me. So I think having a high degree of empathy, understanding the other person's coming from, and most importantly, how they're feeling in this example, I think is really, really evident.
Adeel 20:51
I think that's what we try to encourage a calm talks, right, is that you're always trying to strive for better trying to grow, trying to improve and having a difficult conversation is usually a sign or an opportunity for growth, it is something that you will most likely come out on the other side, a better person. So it will help your progression. But you must do it in a peaceful way, and an employee's way.
Ant 21:17
So just to quickly recap, tip number one, be clear with your why. Understand your motivations and your rationale for entering this difficult conversation. Number two, timing is everything. Make sure you choose the right time to have this conversation, the right time for yourself emotionally, mentally, and the right time with the other person as well as the person receiving this difficult conversation. Tip three, try to be as objective as possible. Try to stick to facts for yourself and when you buy us when you projections, for yourself from any so emotions to make sure that it's easier to get your message across. Number four, align your delivery with the outcomes you desire. You want to make sure that whatever you say you say it in line with what you're trying to achieve. Whether that's beneficial to them or to yourself are mutually beneficial. Make sure what you're saying helps deliver the outcome you're trying to achieve. And lastly, probably most importantly, deliver that message with empathy. Understand where somebody else is coming from, and most importantly, understand how they could be feeling receiving this message. You want to make sure that whatever you do, you're considerate of the other person in front of you. And no matter what you do, stay calm
Adeel 22:42
Thank you for listening to another episode of comp talks. And just as a reminder, if you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and leave a review.
Ant 22:49
You can also find us on Instagram at calm talks and join our mailing list by visiting our website at calmtalks.com
Adeel 22:55
And as always, stay calm.